When are people going to realise?

McWobble

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
I'm a staunch remainer...and I'm hoping for no-deal. The leave project need to own their turds. The sheeple need a rude awakening. England need to wake-up it's real place in the world. This lesson needs learning the hard way, populism needs exposing for the bag of lies and self-interest that it is.
That, I'm afraid, is optimistic. They won't accept any blame. They'll punt that on to anything - and anyone - but themselves. The "bullying" EU. Biden. Those treacherous remoaners. Anyone but themselves. And you can guarantee that Johnson will be the loudest in cheering them on: after all, that's basics of popularism. The UK is already bitterly divided - I fear the blame storm to come will rapidly unpick what little unity remains.
 

Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
Thanks for the replies, however ...

... this is one reason that I seldom feel the urge to post on political forums, because whatever is written, and however it is written - wrong end of stick is often firmly grasped, especially perhaps by those who are so keen to descredit a viewpoint contrary to their own.

I thought I'd made it clear that I think that taking the view that Brexit has any single cause is naive.

I thought I'd made clear that no one can know what conversations may have taken place between the brothers Johnson. I thought I'd made clear that Max was busy building a syndicate of Chinese billionaires to buy British infrastructure in the event of a price crash. I thought I'd made it clear that no opinion was being expressed at any level of collusions between the these two half-brothers. Lastly, I thought the dates of the video and the timing of the election showed that the 2019 election in December followed the earlier interview with Max where he had intentions saying that he has 'a plan' (his words).

I have no idea of the level of success of Max Johnson in implementing his plan. I do have some idea of the moral compass of Boris Johnson to date however. I am aware of the potential consequences when a man like Boris Johnson exposes any semblant of a moral compass close to a magnet.

My use of the word 'potential' in my piece was intended to convey that in the UK we have elected a PM with the potential to pass on inside knowledge to Chinese investers via a half-brother, and with the potential to act against the best interests of the UK. Why weren't the public aware of this potential conflict of interests? It is not in the public interest to be made aware of these potential conflicts of interest?
Potentially I’ll be climbing Everest in a gold lame cat suit next autumn with a marrow shoved-up my jacksie. I know a man with some rope, a friend who owns a fancy dress shop and am likely to grow some marrows next summer....
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
That, I'm afraid, is optimistic. They won't accept any blame. They'll punt that on to anything - and anyone - but themselves. The "bullying" EU. Biden. Those treacherous remoaners. Anyone but themselves. And you can guarantee that Johnson will be the loudest in cheering them on: after all, that's basics of popularism. The UK is already bitterly divided - I fear the blame storm to come will rapidly unpick what little unity remains.
It does feel like we're heading that way.
Johnson strikes me as the kind of person who would be slightly ashamed if caught holding a principle.

Just like all the other horrible populist pundits, and politicos.

If he sees a triumph, or disaster that has caught the public mood, he will calculate how to twist it to appear in some way the 'hero' of the hour, and on the side of 'the people'.

Still, if people keep falling for that, and his moral compass is so evidently broken (if he ever had one) can we blame him for taking advantage - whether for fiscal gain - or to inflate his already overweening sense of self importance ?
 
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Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
That, I'm afraid, is optimistic. They won't accept any blame. They'll punt that on to anything - and anyone - but themselves. The "bullying" EU. Biden. Those treacherous remoaners. Anyone but themselves. And you can guarantee that Johnson will be the loudest in cheering them on: after all, that's basics of popularism. The UK is already bitterly divided - I fear the blame storm to come will rapidly unpick what little unity remains.
It may be optimistic, but we must not stop fighting the Brexiteer narrative and blame-shifting.
Only time and history will show this shoot-show for what it is.
 
It may be optimistic, but we must not stop fighting the Brexiteer narrative and blame-shifting.
Only time and history will show this shoot-show for what it is.
''Fighting the Brexiteer narrative''. I've done plenty of that in the past. It hasn't worked, it's too late, we are leaving, and most likely without a deal.

I don't want to accept this, since it looks to have a huge negative effect on this country, the prosperity and wellbeing of millions of us citizens.

Frankly your own narrative of now wishing that the country goes to the dogs, just so that you can claim you were right about Brexit disturbs me just as much as anything else.

Regime change is urgently needed. I don't just mean a change of government, but constitutional change. We simply must change the way we do things in this country. It's not all about Brexit, it's also about the greed and corruption in plain sight. The media is beginning to move to this conclusion too.

For the ordinary citizen, there is little opportunity other than turn out to vote at a time decided by the political classes. At that point the fear-based FPTP steps in to prevent voters from voting with their hearts. It's time to end the regime of deciding whether to be eaten by a tiger or a wolf at election time. An end to party politics might be a move in the right direction. My ears and mind are open to anyone who comes up with a plan I can vote for, but the likes of Nigel Farage and the new party set up by Lawrence Fox are barely the answer to the country's problems.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
''Fighting the Brexiteer narrative''. I've done plenty of that in the past. It hasn't worked, it's too late, we are leaving, and most likely without a deal.

I don't want to accept this, since it looks to have a huge negative effect on this country, the prosperity and wellbeing of millions of us citizens.

Frankly your own narrative of now wishing that the country goes to the dogs, just so that you can claim you were right about Brexit disturbs me just as much as anything else.

Regime change is urgently needed. I don't just mean a change of government, but constitutional change. We simply must change the way we do things in this country. It's not all about Brexit, it's also about the greed and corruption in plain sight. The media is beginning to move to this conclusion too.

For the ordinary citizen, there is little opportunity other than turn out to vote at a time decided by the political classes. At that point the fear-based FPTP steps in to prevent voters from voting with their hearts. It's time to end the regime of deciding whether to be eaten by a tiger or a wolf at election time. An end to party politics might be a move in the right direction. My ears and mind are open to anyone who comes up with a plan I can vote for, but the likes of Nigel Farage and the new party set up by Lawrence Fox are barely the answer to the country's problems.
I'd agree.

Constitutional and electoral reform are urgently needed.
How do we make that happen??

That's going to take concerted effort, deep thoughtful analysis, and political engagement, from a much larger section of the populace.

That all feels like an uphill struggle.

A friend who was previously (:sad:) an MEP, said it was her next key focus of work.
I must find out how that's going..
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
I ... am likely to grow some marrows next summer....
Um, I'd never had you down as someone who was marrow-minded ...
Frankly your own narrative of now wishing that the country goes to the dogs, just so that you can claim you were right about Brexit disturbs me just as much as anything else.
I'm not sure anybody really wants the country to go to the dogs, rather this is a expression of frustration at the willful, culpable ignorance of the no deal Brexiteers and a desire to see them put right and punished for their folly. The feeling significant economic damage will be the only way they will learn, and the only way the populist approach to politics might be destroyed.

To suggest something more positive, after next January even without a deal Britain will still be able to negotiate changes in the relationship with the EU, and will probably have to. I've said before with hindsight it was a mistake to try to overturn the result of the referendum, but it will still be possible for Britain to negotiate a Norway-style option. After all, they did so as a non-member. This would not overturn the referendum but would undo much of the economic damage, and would give some expression to the wish of the 16 million who didn't want to leave, and might also be acceptable to many less extreme leavers. I could well imagine ever now it would command broad popular support.
 

newfhouse

Regressive elitist lefty
it will still be possible for Britain to negotiate a Norway-style option.
Will they trust us to do this in good faith after we’ve deliberately broken this year’s treaty obligations? I wouldn’t, not with the same untrustworthy PM in charge.
 
I'm not sure anybody really wants the country to go to the dogs, rather this is a expression of frustration at the willful, culpable ignorance of the no deal Brexiteers and a desire to see them put right and punished for their folly. The feeling significant economic damage will be the only way they will learn, and the only way the populist approach to politics might be destroyed.

To suggest something more positive, after next January even without a deal Britain will still be able to negotiate changes in the relationship with the EU, and will probably have to. I've said before with hindsight it was a mistake to try to overturn the result of the referendum, but it will still be possible for Britain to negotiate a Norway-style option. After all, they did so as a non-member. This would not overturn the referendum but would undo much of the economic damage, and would give some expression to the wish of the 16 million who didn't want to leave, and might also be acceptable to many less extreme leavers. I could well imagine ever now it would command broad popular support.
Thank you for the considered reply. I used the word 'narrative' so as to convey the sense that the story was not intended to give an absolute truth to the words. I think there is a danger in these narratives because they were used extensively in the leave campaign.

There was no opportunity to overturn the referendum result. I say this since the referendum result was, legally speaking at least, advisory on parliament rather than binding on government - the scope of the referendum act did not contain the necessary clauses to make it so. At least in the legal sense, it is not possible to overturn advice, nor to declare advice as null and void, and explains why the Supreme Court could not consider that action in the Miller 1 case.

Technically I agree, it remains a possibility that the UK could go Norway style. This is how I currently understand it. There are considerable difficultes, that is not to say they are insuperable, but the barriers are considerable. Firstly, in the case of the UK, membership of the EFTA would need to be sought and granted before accession to the EEA would be possible. Of course, dual parallel applications to both would be possible, as long as it is remembered that EFTA membership does not confer membership to the EEA automatically. Membership of the EEA is not granted by negotiation with the EU, but by unanimous decision of EEA members. I am given to understand that not all current members of the EEA smile favourably upon the UK. It may take some considerable time to restore trust and win those members round.

Whether the Uk electorate would favour membership with the EEA, a community that willing pays fees to the EU in order to have access to the Internal Market, I feel unsure. I don't feel comfortable with having another round of divisive politics on European relations, but that's just me, and nothing more substantial an argument from me than that.

There are those who still believe that a Canade style deal is quickly achievable and deliverable. I don't believe that is the case, since CETA took many years to negotiate, and the circumstances and demographics of Canada are much different to the UK. CETA contains only provisions related to trade of certain, but not all products, and no agreement in relation to services, a key area of exports to Europe for the UK. CETA also contains the dreadful (at least in my opinion) ISDS clauses.
 

Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
Frankly your own narrative of now wishing that the country goes to the dogs, just so that you can claim you were right about Brexit disturbs me just as much as anything else.

Regime change is urgently needed. I don't just mean a change of government, but constitutional change. We simply must change the way we do things in this country. It's not all about Brexit, it's also about the greed and corruption in plain sight. The media is beginning to move to this conclusion too.
Because to get the changes you and I both want, things are going to have to get pretty bad, not look bad, become bad. Personally I think it's bad enough already, but the Daily Mail and Sun reading populace don't seem to give a fig....
Of course I don't want people to suffer, but then this show is not of my making. Sometimes a short-sharp-shock is required.
 

McWobble

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
Because to get the changes you and I both want, things are going to have to get pretty bad, not look bad, become bad. Personally I think it's bad enough already, but the Daily Mail and Sun reading populace don't seem to give a fig....
Of course I don't want people to suffer, but then this show is not of my making. Sometimes a short-sharp-shock is required.
It doesn't necessarily follow that the changes that result from things getting pretty bad will be desirable.

The very best outcome that's likely is that Britain essentially fractures into infighting between bitterly opposed political factions. Scotland, and N. Ireland are likely to leave. The resulting political chaos will result in (what's left of) the UK rapidly losing what's left of its global power and influence, and descend to third tier power status. The economic fallout is not likely to be any better, particularly when you consider that the UK derives much of its economic power from free trade - damaging this will obviously have serious economic consequences. It's likely that many more will fall into grinding poverty, with fewer jobs, and many fewer high quality jobs. Healing, both in terms of economics and society, will take a generation. Bluntly, healing won't start until all of us, who are emotionally invested on both sides are dead.

As for worse outcomes, well a divided country undergoing political and/or economic turmoil is the perfect environment for the rise of a charismatic leader with a simple populist message. History has a very stark message for that outcome: it doesn't end well.
 
Because to get the changes you and I both want, things are going to have to get pretty bad, not look bad, become bad. Personally I think it's bad enough already, but the Daily Mail and Sun reading populace don't seem to give a fig....
Of course I don't want people to suffer, but then this show is not of my making. Sometimes a short-sharp-shock is required.
I wonder about this. The reason I can live in Germany with a mixed race family is directly linked to the massive change in attitudes and culture that took place in Germany and Europe after the war. One of the few hopeful thoughts about the current and entirely self-inflicted mess is that possibly, after the damage of Brexit, and then the political and economic damage it causes, the UK, or what's left of it, may emerge as a more modern and humble country that's ready to work with other nations instead of expecting to dictate to them.

I appreciate that's clutching at straws somewhat, especially given the amount of time this could take and the damage to people's lives that will likely be caused in the meantime.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
I wonder about this. The reason I can live in Germany with a mixed race family is directly linked to the massive change in attitudes and culture that took place in Germany and Europe after the war. One of the few hopeful thoughts about the current and entirely self-inflicted mess is that possibly, after the damage of Brexit, and then the political and economic damage it causes, the UK, or what's left of it, may emerge as a more modern and humble country that's ready to work with other nations instead of expecting to dictate to them.

I appreciate that's clutching at straws somewhat, especially given the amount of time this could take and the damage to people's lives that will likely be caused in the meantime.
Something im wondering myself.

If won't be quite like German reconstruction post war, of course, but I think we are due a heavy reckoning.

Ww still have a lot of talent, drive creativity, and innovation available within our population - including those immigrants who will hopefully stay here knowing that we are not all hostile to them by any means.

My German farm trainee, who couldn't start til late on this season, wants to stay on for next year too.

It's been very interesting hearing her perspective on all this.

And to find out about the system of Government, where you live.

Maybe we can build ourselves back leaner greener, more realistic, more modern .

Sloughing off the bloated jingoistic nostalgia for days of Empire, and our supposed exceptionalism, would be so refreshing.

We might even be able to sort ourselves out to the point that the EU would welcome us back..
 
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