Transgender world cycling champion- is it right?

Skibird

Well-Known Member
But I don't respect all views equally. I have a broad yardstick: I aim to respect views that affirm the dignity, value and importance of all lives more than views that reinforce oppression, hierarchy, prejudice, and fear.
When I said "respect should work both ways" it was not aimed at you, it was for everyone. I respect that you have your views, and whether I personally agree with them or not, I would not be abusive to you if I didn't agree. Again, I stress that I am talking about 'views', as actions are totally different.
 

Skibird

Well-Known Member
The name and the pronoun are clearly different things, and they each carry an overlapping but different set of implications. But in both cases, it is one person asking you to refer to them in a different way. If someone decides that agreeing to one request is acceptable but the other isn't, that is not something inherent in the difference between a noun and a pronoun, that is their choice, a choice that says something about their values and their worldview.
But it is to them, and as you say, it is their choice.
 

AndyRM

XOXO
Location
Roker
When I said "respect should work both ways" it was not aimed at you, it was for everyone. I respect that you have your views, and whether I personally agree with them or not, I would not be abusive to you if I didn't agree. Again, I stress that I am talking about 'views', as actions are totally different.
I'm genuinely confused. You say 'respect should work both ways', which is quite right, but then I imagine the following conversation, which is what your posts about pronouns seem to be suggesting (apologies in advance if I've got this wrong):

"Hi, I'm Andy. I use they/them pronouns."

"Oh. I don't believe in gender fluidity, and you look like a guy, so I'm going to refer to you as 'he'."

"Er. I'm really not OK with that."

"Well, you're going to have to be."

In that scenario, I know who's got the right to be a bit miffed. And who's actually being abusive.
 

Skibird

Well-Known Member
I'm genuinely confused. You say 'respect should work both ways', which is quite right, but then I imagine the following conversation, which is what your posts about pronouns seem to be suggesting (apologies in advance if I've got this wrong):

"Hi, I'm Andy. I use they/them pronouns."

"Oh. I don't believe in gender fluidity, and you look like a guy, so I'm going to refer to you as 'he'."

"Er. I'm really not OK with that."

"Well, you're going to have to be."

In that scenario, I know who's got the right to be a bit miffed. And who's actually being abusive.
 

Skibird

Well-Known Member
I'm genuinely confused. You say 'respect should work both ways', which is quite right, but then I imagine the following conversation, which is what your posts about pronouns seem to be suggesting (apologies in advance if I've got this wrong):

"Hi, I'm Andy. I use they/them pronouns."

"Oh. I don't believe in gender fluidity, and you look like a guy, so I'm going to refer to you as 'he'."

"Er. I'm really not OK with that."

"Well, you're going to have to be."

In that scenario, I know who's got the right to be a bit miffed. And who's actually being abusive.
Are you not reading my posts correctly? I have said numerous times that I personally would be fine using whatever pronoun someone wanted me to and have.
 

AndyRM

XOXO
Location
Roker
Are you not reading my posts correctly? I have said numerous times that I personally would be fine using whatever pronoun someone wanted me to and have.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. On one hand you say that you're happy using preferred pronouns, but on the other support people not doing so. Personally I don't see how both of those things can be true.
 

theclaud

It's teeceegawnmaaaad
Location
Swansea
The name and the pronoun are clearly different things, and they each carry an overlapping but different set of implications. But in both cases, it is one person asking you to refer to them in a different way. If someone decides that agreeing to one request is acceptable but the other isn't, that is not something inherent in the difference between a noun and a pronoun, that is their choice, a choice that says something about their values and their worldview.
I'm genuinely confused. You say 'respect should work both ways', which is quite right, but then I imagine the following conversation, which is what your posts about pronouns seem to be suggesting (apologies in advance if I've got this wrong):

"Hi, I'm Andy. I use they/them pronouns."

"Oh. I don't believe in gender fluidity, and you look like a guy, so I'm going to refer to you as 'he'."

"Er. I'm really not OK with that."

"Well, you're going to have to be."

In that scenario, I know who's got the right to be a bit miffed. And who's actually being abusive.
Context, innit? Dependent on a lot if things, including the relationship between speakers and the relevance or not of a person's sex or gender to the situation or utterance? If a university tutor insists on referring in class to a trans student using the opposite pronouns to those requested, it undermines the student's position in the class, by constantly making their trans identity an issue where the gender of other students is not. Unfair discrimination, in other words. Ditto all sorts of similar situations in workplaces and suchlike. If, however, you are reporting a violent sexual crime and the perpetrator is a male who identifies as a woman, I would suggest that it is important that we know this, because gender is extremely salient in patterns of sexual violence. The current, utterly bizarre convention in such cases seems to be to use the preferred pronouns alongside a picture that effectively refutes them. Maybe that's enough, as essentially the relevant information is there in one way or another, but it's a convention that has understandably led people to worry that such offences might (either currently or in the future) be officially recorded as having female perpetrators. It matters how you use personal pronouns, because people's dignity and self-determination matters, but they are not the property of the person they refer to, which is why the whole idea of 'my pronouns' sounds a bit odd from a sociolinguistic perspective, as well as a specifically feminist one which understands that femaleness is marked in language where maleness is a default.
 
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