The Brexit Thread

Adam4868

Guru
Agreed, every single MP who voted for a bill that they had no chance of examining or understanding should be ashamed of themselves. Wholly unfit to represent anyone.

It is literally their job to examine these documents, pull them apart, find issues and resolve them, rather than assuming that "it'll be fine" based on the say-so of a man whose entire life - both professional and personal - has consisted of duplicitious bluster.
I still find it hard to believe they did,I mean a Labour MP assisting the Tories and especially Johnson FFS.
 

Edwardoka

Shambling ruin of a man
I still find it hard to believe they did,I mean a Labour MP assisting the Tories and especially Johnson FFS.
I don't. I was there in 2014 when Labour climbed into bed with the Tories and shared the Better Together platform with them.
The North remembers.
 

perplexed

Guru
Location
Sheffield
I still find it hard to believe they did,I mean a Labour MP assisting the Tories and especially Johnson FFS.
You're not alone in condeming them. '19 Labour MPs' is 'trending' on Twitter and they're getting a shoeing for it. They are actively damaging the Labour Party's standing, which was beginning to show some signs of recovery. They are walking through the same lobby as Priti Patel, Duncan-Smith, Raab, Rees Mogg. This is not going to end well. The Tories will burn them within seconds of them outliving their usefulness.


View: https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1186724449502072838?s=20
 

stowie

Guru
Eu elections are in most countries well below 50% (and than i'm being conversative see for yourself http://www.ukpolitical.info/european-parliament-election-turnout.htm )
In my constituency local election are about 60% average i beleive around the 70% next time so indeed not so high as national elections, but considerately higher than the eu elections. I also note that after 1999 the turnout rise a little bit for the uk (from 25%! to around 40) but plummet in other eu countries.
Which constituency are you in? The average in England is 35%. even those with high turnout struggle to cross 50% threshold on local elections.

There are some local elections which are a little misleading as they have been held on the same day as other elections and these has bumped up the turnover. But people voting specifically for local councillors? Way low generally.

Which is ironic. Most people when talking to their MP will complain about parking, potholes, schools, bins, local care provision etc. All usually under local council remit (schools is a complicated one) for which the MP holds no direct responsibility at all. Yet they won't bother to cast a vote in the elections that decide who does control all these things.

Of course, it is well within anyone's right not to vote. But we can end up with sub-standard representatives which low voter turnout doesn't help at all.

While i agree with you most of these points and indeed it sure looks like it worked for them, i also think it worked for them because the other side was having an extremly bad campaign with boats with a screaming singer next to Farage/leave campaign boat. Instead of finding their own ways of making their point.
Remain had a tough gig. Firstly they were the "status quo" which can be favourable as long as people understand what that "status quo" gives them. Then, the key Remain campaigners were often people who, for years, had been devaluing the EU and putting all sorts of blame on them as it was politically expedient to do so. Difficult to do a U-turn and say the EU is important and beneficial at that point.

Finally, running a campaign like Leave did is fine if you simply want to win at any cost. But part of the unholy mess we are in is that the campaign was fundamentally dishonest about a whole bunch of stuff coupled with a carefully managed strategy of not giving any details. Plus they successfully used the "project fear" label on Remain when actually the Leave campaign was all about fear coupled with ambiguous aspirations.

Remain expected a Queensbury rules fight and Leave turned up with a shotgun. This doesn't bode well for our democratic process - the next election I expect to be utterly negative and ruthless on both sides.

Yeah i remember, the guys with an ''spitzencanidate''that is completely ignored and choose and Merkels's friend instead.
That incident actually shows the power the leaders of the countries in the European Council wield. The spizencandidate was supposed to be chosen by the largest group in the EU parliament and nominated by the European Council. Except the leaders of the member nations didn't like this idea too much and overrode it this year since they only have to "take into account" the EP recommendation not actually follow it.

Whether this is right or wrong is a matter of debate. But far from Merkel's hand in the process, the Spitzencandidate seems to have been killed off by a mix of Orban and Macron. Orban was getting back at Weber's support for suspension of his party from the EPP. Macron hates the fact the EU parliament felt it had de-facto say on the candidate, and chose his own.

No what i mean is that Angela vor der Leyden has said/unvealed/made plans for an eu-army and closer financial union, even closer than they have with the euro. The Netherlands always rejected that but recently suddenly dropped their objections. So the dutch pm wil most likely get an eu job somewhere in the lines. (not predictable or something that sell-out)
From a UK point of view the Euro integration around fiscal matters was of little relevence seeing as we had opt-outs and would never join the currency. The "EU army" seems a bit overblown to me. EU member states are deeply concerned about NATO and the US president's attitude to it. We can no longer trust the ally that has been instrumental to European military co-operation. So they are looking for other options. The problem is that I cannot see the EU member states managing to do anything that amounts to much. With the UK deeply against any idea that could be seen to be in conflict with NATO there was no chance of anything happening. Now, I can see that there may be moves to military co-operation within the EU framework, but I don't think it is the "threat" that it is perceived to be.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
She's the incoming EU President.
No, that's Ursula von der Leyen. And I'm sure someone who criticises others for posting nonsense wouldn't just make up names. That's the sort of dumb shoot only a daffodil like Baris Jameson would do.
 

perplexed

Guru
Location
Sheffield
They may go for a long one, just to damage (or at least pißß of Johnson and the ERG...)
My understanding is that they are mandated to accept what the EU offer, be it whatever (Benn Act). What I'm not quite sure about is if the EU can attach a 'condition' to it, such as a 2nd ref or a GE.

The advantage of a long extension is that every minute he's PM and under the glare of the spotlight, and if all the opposition parties (notwithstanding the 19 useful idiots above) can work together and turn the screw, he'll be horribly exposed for the useless bag of blather that he is.

There needs to be massive pressure brought to bear. Gove has said a 2nd ref 'ain't gonna happen' but they've said all sorts of crap over the last 3.5 years, so i'm not paying too much attention to anything he says. 2nd ref needs to be hammered, hammered and hammered some more.
 
Last edited:

Bollo

Failed Tech Bro
Location
Winch
Taking step back for a moment, is anyone struggling with the idea of another GE? This would be the second GE since the Brexit vote. Why is the will of the people as expressed in the 2017 GE not being respected when the 2016 WotP is now a recognised religion?
 
Last edited:

icowden

Senior Member
Location
Surrey
You're not alone in condeming them. '19 Labour MPs' is 'trending' on Twitter and they're getting a shoeing for it. They are actively damaging the Labour Party's standing, which was beginning to show some signs of recovery. They are walking through the same lobby as Priti Patel, Duncan-Smith, Raab, Rees Mogg. This is not going to end well. The Tories will burn them within seconds of them outliving their usefulness.
Just saw a tweet suggesting that this was calculated in that it gives those Labour MPs (who are representing areas that strongly voted leave) the ability to honestly say that they voted for the bill when they are out campaigning. Their plan was / is to block the bill at the second reading.
 

icowden

Senior Member
Location
Surrey
Taking step back for a moment, is anyone struggling with the idea of another GE? This would be the second GE since the Brexit vote. Why is the will of the people in as expressed in the 2017 GE not being respected when the 2016 WotP is now a recognised religion?
Because the will of the people in the 2017 GE was "Bu**ered if I know". A hung parliament does not have any mandate to do anything. Hence er... today. Labour won't campaign for Remain and therefore aren't an opposition party. The only credible opposition party is LibDem plus SNP, and they can't get the numbers largely due to first past the post. So we are stuck in Dante's inferno indefinitely as politicians debate how to achieve Schroedinger's Quantum Brexit or how to leave in 5 different ways before breakfast.:cursing:.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom