rear wheel, scraping noise every rotation

OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
Rode this afternoon 60 km with the noise like it was yesterday. I'm again starting getting used to it. :sad:
Came on another thought, IF it origins from a bearing (which is beyond my bicycle skills), could I try to drip some oil towards the bearing to check if that makes the noise change somehow, which could then be a confirmation of the bearing as its source?
I do realize that oil may make grease inside thinner, so that grease could leak away.
 

gaijintendo

Über Member
Location
Scotchland
:okay::okay::okay:
Rode this afternoon 60 km with the noise like it was yesterday. I'm again starting getting used to it. :sad:
Came on another thought, IF it origins from a bearing (which is beyond my bicycle skills), could I try to drip some oil towards the bearing to check if that makes the noise change somehow, which could then be a confirmation of the bearing as its source?
I do realize that oil may make grease inside thinner, so that grease could leak away.
They should have designed them with a decent seal. It could be cup and cone though, I'll check if you mentioned the hub brand. But getting oil in is unlikely.

My bearings went, and were supposedly serviced, but ended up worse and the wheel got retired.

As has been said, if you leave it too long the points of contact get deformed and you can't usually change the cones, or what have you.

Mine became tougher to ride and noisier, but in my case more consistently noisy during the rotation.

Do you have a lbs? Or are you enjoying the detective work too much?
 

Pat "5mph"

A kilogrammicaly challenged woman
Moderator
Location
Glasgow
Since it goes by itself after some time, doesn't that eliminate bearings?
Once I had an intermittent noise from a back wheel.
Took it to the LBS: I had tightened the cone locknut too much, squashing a couple of bearings.
It was my first time servicing a hub :blush:
Another time the back wheel started to make a noise after a very wet ride.
The noise stopped after a few miles. I rode another 50 miles on it.
The noise started again, I ignored it, rode another 50 miles on it.
The wheel was a bit wobbly, I got disk brakes, gears were changing OK, so, again I ignored it.
One day there was an almighty crunch, bearings everywhere: the axle had collapsed, the hub was bone dry, no grease at all.
Opss ... :blush:
Maybe, if you don't want to take the bike to a shop, watch a few You Tube videos on how to service cup and cone hubs, if that's what you've got?
 
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
:okay::okay::okay:
They should have designed them with a decent seal. It could be cup and cone though, I'll check if you mentioned the hub brand. But getting oil in is unlikely.

My bearings went, and were supposedly serviced, but ended up worse and the wheel got retired.

As has been said, if you leave it too long the points of contact get deformed and you can't usually change the cones, or what have you.

Mine became tougher to ride and noisier, but in my case more consistently noisy during the rotation.

Do you have a lbs? Or are you enjoying the detective work too much?
At some point I really started to dislike lbs's.
OFFTOPIC>
Too much serious flaws in their work. The list is endless. Some examples:
- Ball too much in bearing, cup and conus pushed away from eachother, wheel wobbling like crazy. A serviced wheel, stored as a spare, so a second misery on top of a first.
- Bike size too small despite having mentioned importance of frame size (2 new bikes)
- Stem mounted not deep enough, causing steering to get dismounted in the middle of riding, with me uncontrolled between 2 cars having to use a hedge to achieve a stop. Humor, but just think about it...
- A spacer to achieve straight chainline being a reused part of aluminium with 3 holes drilled in it. I left the lbs and the first push on the pedal broke it.
- A new bike (latest) asked for and designed as durable, but delivered with a 5 mm wrong chainline despite dealer having said during the built to order phase that the chainline wasn't 100% straight but that they found a solution. They didn't, but kept mouth shut about it, even when I asked why my chain hung tilted like a V, to only finally admit after I asked on a forum how to measure it myself and did so, and after a first reaction that on internet there is alot said but little of it is true.
- Same new bike (4300 euro), hydraulic brake oil line rear mounted with a too short corner causing it to break after time
- Again same, asked for 1/8" drivetrain, but mounted a 3/32" chainring without saying. I discovered it when it wore to shark fins in a single month.
- Again same, one month riding, wobbling bottom bracket axle, chainring scratching the frame, loosened by itself, dealer hadn't applied Loctite despite web advertisements stating "Loctite by standard". And his first diagnosis was bearings broke down. And he even said due to the 3 weeks wait for bearings replacement service that I safely could further use the bike till then, while the chainring was already scratching the frame!
- Bike stand mounted with A2 (grade 304) stainless steel bolts through aluminium. Galvanic corrosion fret it out so worse that the mount loosened every 3 usages and retensionings.
- Rim tape too narrow, causing inner tire to contact metal of rim and being damaged, discovered it when I suffered a flat without apparent reason. The tape width was the same as the rim but the rim basis is curved so longer, too stupid to realize or just not interested enough to do a job well?
- When asking, dealer told me that I wouldn't have to deflate the tire to take out the wheel, he even said that that would be ridiculous. It was like that - the Magura hydraulic brakes pads mounts were too close to eachother to allow a blown up tire to pass.
- I had asked a certain gear ratio but he recommended (as turnt out later the frame clearance was too limited to allow a bigger chainring) another ratio, but it was an integer, causing the chains wear to be concentrated and a huge tension variation.
- The 6 bolts of the rear cog had just a couple threads, they were 4 mm shorter than required length in specifications. And the dealer applied red Loctite, causing thread damage when removed - I had to tap the holes.
And so on...

I'm using bikes for everything (no car) since 20 years and over that time I had (and left) 5 dealers, due to bad work inflicting me misery. Some day it became too much and I moved to singlespeed then fixed gear and since I did most of the work myself, instead of having to wait 3 weeks then 3 months and finally 9 months to get a bike serviced, with my other bike already needing it too.

ONTOPIC>
So I'm not enjoying detective work, I try to learn things enough to cope with them myself. That's independency, freedom, and reliability.
The hub is "Surly hub Ultra singlespeed disc 135x10mm 36G" but the "New" of the current isn't mentioned anywhere.
The tech specs of the New are here: https://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/Surly_UltraNew_Hub_Axle_Kit_Instructions.pdf

But bearings seem still unlikely to me as cause of the noise. I had a flat two days ago and the noise started after replacing the inner tube and the deflation>reinflation of the process.
Also nothing happened that day explaining a sudden reappearance of the noise.
A nail punctured outer and inner tire, that was it. A clean round small hole, straight on the tire. The nail was like new, not bent, nothing. So I doubt the outer tires carcas could have been damaged in such a way that it deforms enough to bridge the large clearance to hit something of the frame.
 
Last edited:
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
Another time the back wheel started to make a noise after a very wet ride.
The noise stopped after a few miles. I rode another 50 miles on it.
The noise started again, I ignored it, rode another 50 miles on it.
My case s abit the same only differs in time / miles, it's now juli, I have had 3 periods of this noise since start 2019, each one lasting 3-4 weeks. Some times the noise was less loud than other times. I ride 60 km daily, so my case is like 1600 miles noise, then 1600 miles no noise - don't take these figures literally, just very rough estimates.
What is a bearing : a set balls (or cilinders/whatever) between a component that spins around another component. If the noise origins from the bearing then there must be some component(s) of the bearing that lost their original shape enough to give too much room and some undesired movement, causing the noise. For ex, a ball can have been slammed due to bicycle humping over an obstacle, and the ball can then be flattened somewhere on its surface. Now it is possible that this flat surface gets turned to a direction where it fits tighter than another position and that this direction maintains for a longer time / miles figure. But 1600 or so?
Maybe I could try a heavily loaded a hump to get that ball in a more favorable direction haha.

The noise isn't sharp / short like a ball in a bearing - I've had a bottom bracket bearing failure 3 years ago and it was short sharp ticking). And I had once a loose (not broken) spoke that rattled which was sharp short too.
This noise now is longer and less sharp, it sounds more like rubber than like metal, and it's like the sounds origin is buried within a casing. Alike inside the tire. But I replaced the inner tube, checked the inner surface of the outher, didn't see anything. I didn't remove the rim tape though.
 
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
No hair on my head that thinks of opening a hub.
No tools either, bicycles typically require alot specialty tools, mine is for a part an exception because I wanted it so, chainring, cog, brakes, chain tensioning, all it needs is a couple allen keys and a hex key, that I always have with me, in the pocket next to the small change pocket.
A hub or bottom bracket is a different story.
I don't even know the internals, the Surly scheme I linked may be a different version of mine.
Is it cup/conus? Is it an industrial bearing that cannot be serviced but only replaced?
In the cup/conus case, the mount of the two parts requires a specific tension strength in order to give the balls not too much and not too less room.
It's not even sure the noise comes from the hub.
I have had 3 periods of this noise, with thousands miles between. If a bearing/ball is in such bad shape that it produces noises all the time, then I doubt it would last further than some dozens miles.
Just before this latest bike, I had on my previous a noise from the bottom bracket. 1 week later the bearing broke down completely, with my chainring wobbling so much that it was impossible to ride with it. Just to illustrate. A case with a noisy bearing lasting thousands miles, appears unlikely to me.
 

gaijintendo

Über Member
Location
Scotchland
No hair on my head that thinks of opening a hub.
No tools either, bicycles typically require alot specialty tools, mine is for a part an exception because I wanted it so, chainring, cog, brakes, chain tensioning, all it needs is a couple allen keys and a hex key, that I always have with me, in the pocket next to the small change pocket.
A hub or bottom bracket is a different story.
I don't even know the internals, the Surly scheme I linked may be a different version of mine.
Is it cup/conus? Is it an industrial bearing that cannot be serviced but only replaced?
In the cup/conus case, the mount of the two parts requires a specific tension strength in order to give the balls not too much and not too less room.
It's not even sure the noise comes from the hub.
I have had 3 periods of this noise, with thousands miles between. If a bearing/ball is in such bad shape that it produces noises all the time, then I doubt it would last further than some dozens miles.
Just before this latest bike, I had on my previous a noise from the bottom bracket. 1 week later the bearing broke down completely, with my chainring wobbling so much that it was impossible to ride with it. Just to illustrate. A case with a noisy bearing lasting thousands miles, appears unlikely to me.
Do let us know what it was when you fix it.

I have had loose pannier racks, saddles I thought were bearings, brake rub I thought was a heart condition, tyre rub I thought was only a spoke gone... It's always good to figure these things out.
 
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
For the moment I gave (again) up trying to find the cause.
I think it's gonna need rollers and someone to check while I'm riding on the rollers.
It sounds abit like rubbing rubber. Alike the surface of the outer tire hits something somewhere, despite the big clearance (2 cm) everywhere. This would also explain why it started again after an inner tire replacement.
This would mean that a part of the outer tire deforms under load so much that it bridges 2 cm.
It makes me now think.. Last year I bought 5 spares of these outer tires. The shop delivered them in a box wherein they were cramped, the tires were tied together in an 8 form with a couple tighteners. When I cut the tighteners, I found the tires as seriously malformed, I couldn't get the bends out of the tires. Maybe some local damage causes the tire to seriously deform on 1 location.
Just a wild guess
 
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
The noise has become less worse than the week after the flat and wheel removal/remount.
But this morning, took the bike outside, clearly noticed wheel lateral movement within the frame.
First thought it finally made clear the noise, what you guys said: bearings.
So without looking much further I put the bike upside down and went after my spare rear wheel.
Then I wanted to lose the two bolts (with torx heads) and found out I didn't have to - both were totally loose. It's a week ago I checked their tension (when I was trying to pinpoint noise cause).
So this is really weird. I have found a loose bolt in the past too, now and then, but not that frequently that a retension after a single week was needed, it was more like a couple months.
And the entire story starts to "read" like the one I had with the bike's stand, whose finally discovered reason was galvanic corrosion, being the 2 A2 / grade 304 stainless steel allen head bolts that went through an aluminium mount block to the frame's holes, together with an electrically conducting liquid (water) making the stainless fret out the aluminium.
Now, the wheel bolts are certainly stainless steel, but I don't know about the hubs material on that place (I will try to find out on specs or eventually ask the bikes producer). The bolts are tensioned against springs, I have to overcome their force when tensioning.
If the thread is aluminium, and is gradually being damaged by the stainless bolts, possibly the entire hub has to be replaced.
Regarding to the noise, it's unlikely a loose wheel mount is the cause, because due to my searchs, I've checked the bolts many times and even after checking, directly riding, noise was still there.
 
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
Do let us know what it was when you fix it.

I have had loose pannier racks, saddles I thought were bearings, brake rub I thought was a heart condition, tyre rub I thought was only a spoke gone... It's always good to figure these things out.
Today I finally discovered the reason.
To recapitulate: as usual, the noise disappeared after some weeks, it got less loud, until nothing, and that is since a couple months nothing.
This morning, after arriving on work, as usual I put the bike upside down to check the tyres for objects. While turning the rear wheel, it suddenly stopped / met resistence. I saw that the rim touched a brake pad, but only over a quite short distance, remarkably "sudden". My first thought was a broken spoke. But there wasn't any, and also I couldn't find any remarkably different spoke tension. Finally my eye catched it: a 10 cm crack in the rim, between spoke holes and edge.
This crack must have been there all the time, gradually getting longer, while me trueing the wheel over and over again, without clue why out of true. And it explains why the noise came back after a flat and reinflation: the width of the crack grews and shrunk with the tyre pressure.
As a precaution, I had a spare rear wheel avail, so I mounted that and took the wheel to the dealer.
At first, no explanation for the crack. No idea. Then I mentioned that the bikes producer had started to use new rims due to some problems with the existing, and asked which problems that have been. The dealer denied that the crack could be due to those. Nevertheless, he decided to take off the tyres and rim tape, and inspect. And bingo: the entire rim was cracked, over the whole circumference, the crack crossed every spoke hole. Clearly the rims strength must have been inadequate for 62 mm tyres and normal (within specifications of tyres) pressures (2.5-4 bar-I usually pumped to abit over 3 (3.2) because less made the tyres deform too much and the bikes response to maneuvering quite unsafe feeling.
Since the rim is double walled, the other wall was solely holding it all together, and this outer wall thus was also starting to crack.
Dealer then admitted the problem cause and decided to replace the rim with the new type of the producer, and also my spare rear wheel.
Which made me ride less angry riding home.

And I have a new question, the dealer said that the new brand rim that the producer uses, has spoke holes stamped instead of drilled, and suggested that as being a beneficial - the material (for the home) would be removed in one go, not cut by chip removal. I asked if stamping didn't risk cracks around the holes. In the end, it's a slamming operation, alot stress, unlike gradual drilling. But I don't know, so asking here. Is stamped better than drilled, or does it all not matter that much?
 

gaijintendo

Über Member
Location
Scotchland
Today I finally discovered the reason.
To recapitulate: as usual, the noise disappeared after some weeks, it got less loud, until nothing, and that is since a couple months nothing.
This morning, after arriving on work, as usual I put the bike upside down to check the tyres for objects. While turning the rear wheel, it suddenly stopped / met resistence. I saw that the rim touched a brake pad, but only over a quite short distance, remarkably "sudden". My first thought was a broken spoke. But there wasn't any, and also I couldn't find any remarkably different spoke tension. Finally my eye catched it: a 10 cm crack in the rim, between spoke holes and edge.
This crack must have been there all the time, gradually getting longer, while me trueing the wheel over and over again, without clue why out of true. And it explains why the noise came back after a flat and reinflation: the width of the crack grews and shrunk with the tyre pressure.
As a precaution, I had a spare rear wheel avail, so I mounted that and took the wheel to the dealer.
At first, no explanation for the crack. No idea. Then I mentioned that the bikes producer had started to use new rims due to some problems with the existing, and asked which problems that have been. The dealer denied that the crack could be due to those. Nevertheless, he decided to take off the tyres and rim tape, and inspect. And bingo: the entire rim was cracked, over the whole circumference, the crack crossed every spoke hole. Clearly the rims strength must have been inadequate for 62 mm tyres and normal (within specifications of tyres) pressures (2.5-4 bar-I usually pumped to abit over 3 (3.2) because less made the tyres deform too much and the bikes response to maneuvering quite unsafe feeling.
Since the rim is double walled, the other wall was solely holding it all together, and this outer wall thus was also starting to crack.
Dealer then admitted the problem cause and decided to replace the rim with the new type of the producer, and also my spare rear wheel.
Which made me ride less angry riding home.

And I have a new question, the dealer said that the new brand rim that the producer uses, has spoke holes stamped instead of drilled, and suggested that as being a beneficial - the material (for the home) would be removed in one go, not cut by chip removal. I asked if stamping didn't risk cracks around the holes. In the end, it's a slamming operation, alot stress, unlike gradual drilling. But I don't know, so asking here. Is stamped better than drilled, or does it all not matter that much?
I'm just happy you are in one piece.

I can't really give you an answer regarding the metal, but metals are weird. For one thing, you forge them to give strength. If you punch, presumably the lip narrows, rather than exposing an edge. That narrow lip may be stronger and less open to oxidation and fracture.
 

Ajax Bay

Veteran
Location
East Devon
Finally my eye catched it: a 10 cm crack in the rim, between spoke holes and edge.

Clearly the rim's strength must have been inadequate for 62mm tyres and normal (within specifications of tyres) pressures (2.5-4 bar-I usually pumped to a bit over 3 (3.2)
Assume 10mm, not 10cm.
What make/model of rim? What was the rim's internal rim width? 3.2 bar (45psi) seems extraordinarily high for 62mm width tyres.
 
Top Bottom