Lance Armstrong, love or loathe, in 2019

KneesUp

Veteran
The first tour I watched was the last one won by a Frenchman. I wouldn’t say I thought Armstrong was cheating more than anyone else. He was passing the tests. But it’d be a stretch to say I thought he was clean too. It looked too easy for him, for Riis, for Ullrich. For all of them. And they were big guys. So my disappointment in him doping was like the disappointment when you do a scratchcard. Yes it’s disappointing you’ve not won £30k but really you didn’t think you were going to anyway.
 
someone who cheated at the highest level, built his whole persona around how clean and how good an athlete he was, (look at me ive beat cancer and now I am winning the tour de france) not to mention the bullying tactics and ruined lives of people who stood up to him.

are you really comparing that to spending a quid on a scratch card and not winning £30k
 

KneesUp

Veteran
someone who cheated at the highest level, built his whole persona around how clean and how good an athlete he was, (look at me ive beat cancer and now I am winning the tour de france) not to mention the bullying tactics and ruined lives of people who stood up to him.

are you really comparing that to spending a quid on a scratch card and not winning £30k
I think my emotional investment in sport is about the same - I watch the TdF because it interests me - tactics, cheating, scenery and all. I don't "support" a particular rider or team. (But that said Roche in '87 and LeMond in '89 were quite exciting)

I'm not saying he's a great person or anything - he ruined other people's lives, as so many others in many walks of life have done, are doing and will do. I'm just saying that having done those things doesn't make his opinions irrelevant, nor does it make him much different to many others who he raced against. But he has been treated differently, and that doesn't seem fair. I note that Bjarne Riis has admitted to using EPO when he won the tour in 1996, but he's still listed as the winner, and he is allowed to own and operate a UCI Continental Team, whereas Armstrong has had all his TdF results deleted and has a life ban from all cycling activities. I suspect if he'd won 1 or 2, like Riis he'd have been re-instated as the winner by now - and he would definitely have been if he was French. He is being treated differently because he won seven.
 
I think he's being treated differently because of the sheer scale of his cheating, not just the doping but pursuing people through the courts, intimidating people personally, ridiculing people and on top of that he started a charitable foundation to help people in real need which was based on a lie, a lie which must have had an impact on all those who really bought into it, bought the bands, joined the fan club, defended him. He had political aspirations based on his success, he won sponsors who spent public money on him based on his lies. It's the sheer scale of what he did which has never been seen before, that's why he was treated differently, he needed to be to bring him down, nothing but a total re-write of what he did was ever going to convince people just how bad he was and it seems even that isn't enough. That's what i mean when I said earlier he's trying to re-write the narrative of what he did and it looks like he might be succeeding.
 
He is being treated differently because he won seven.

No, he isn't being treated differently just because he won/didn't win seven, see @Crackle post above, the thing is we are all different , have different values/beliefs etc , of course some will hate him and what he did with a passion while others may shrug shoulders and say ...oh well..never mind, personally my shoulders remain unshrugged , I cant stand the prick.
 

KneesUp

Veteran
No, he isn't being treated differently just because he won/didn't win seven, see @Crackle post above, the thing is we are all different , have different values/beliefs etc , of course some will hate him and what he did with a passion while others may shrug shoulders and say ...oh well..never mind, personally my shoulders remain unshrugged , I cant stand the prick.
Riis eventually admitted he took EPO in winning the tour in 1997, when he could deny it no longer. They took the title off him, then gave it him back with an asterisk, and let him run his own cycling teams.
Armstrong eventually admitted he took EPO when he could deny it no longer, and lost all his TdF wins and has a life ban from all professional cycling activities.

How is that the same treatment?
 

KneesUp

Veteran
I never said he wasn't being treated different, it was you that said he was being treated differently because he won seven..... I then said he isn't being treated differently JUST BECAUSE he won/didn't win seven TDF,
I don't agree - the only difference between him and Riis is Riss won once and he won seven times. They both took the same drugs to do it, and denied it at the time.
 
That's fine , im not trying change your mind, but for me , as I said @Crackle post above sums up the vast difference between them
I don't agree - the only difference between him and Riis is Riss won once and he won seven times. They both took the same drugs to do it, and denied it at the time.
 
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View: https://youtu.be/ac_x4ucbReo


Just saw this.

Is he a self interested person, or someone who made some big mistakes but overall is wanting to help people.

I think the times I watched Le Tour, when he was cycling, there was something about his desire to win which made some unbelievable and exciting tv.
Truly loathe. His eagerness to litigate against people who did not have the cash to defend themselves against Lances lawyer army was despicable. He could fall under a bus and I would not unhappy.
 

david k

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No, he isn't being treated differently just because he won/didn't win seven, see @Crackle post above, the thing is we are all different , have different values/beliefs etc , of course some will hate him and what he did with a passion while others may shrug shoulders and say ...oh well..never mind, personally my shoulders remain unshrugged , I cant stand the prick.
He is different to all other dopers I know, that's why he is treated differently,




Because he is
 
If he hadn't been such a twat as well as a doper then he would probably have kept his titles, but he was american, what do people expect, they litigate because they get wet when the forecast said sunshine.
 

KneesUp

Veteran
There is also the small but significant difference that Riis did not try to ruin peoples lives using lawyers as weapons.
That’s nothing to do with the rules of the TdF though. It doesn’t say “if you admit to cheating you can stay in the record books if we like you” does it?
 
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