Happy International Men's Day 2020

I've not come across this 'well they're just men' so we don't care attitude - perhaps its different where you are - it clearly needs tackling.
Look no further than the debate last week in the House of Commons on International Men's day, where a mere handful of Labour and SNP MP's turned up, and I think four women.

The danger with things like this and the complete lack of political interest in things like 93-95% of workplace deaths being men or the appalling rates of male suicide worldwide, is that the left of politics makes it clear that they are only interested in men who fit the correct mould: if you don't subscribe to the "correct" way of thinking as a man, then you are on your own.

This complacency is rapidly making men's rights a right wing issue, and that's extremely dangerous: men, especially young men are a fantastic power for good in the world, but they have the potential to do much damage. It's one thing for men to feel excluded an like they have no opportunities, it's another to feel they are then being blamed for it.

The Right wing will welcome them with open arms and feed them poison, and the results can be seen in the Proud Boys and the White supremacists, the Tommy Robinson supporters. They don't care a bit for their footsoldiers and will use them as cannon fodder, but they have a better story for the confused young men who feel that they are being attacked just for being male.

We need to have a better story for men, not just "you are acceptable if you support our cause" but a proper life giving story that tells young men who they are and gives them a challenge instead of overwhelming them with guilt for being male.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Look no further than the debate last week in the House of Commons on International Men's day, where a mere handful of Labour and SNP MP's turned up, and I think four women.

The danger with things like this and the complete lack of political interest in things like 93-95% of workplace deaths being men or the appalling rates of male suicide worldwide, is that the left of politics makes it clear that they are only interested in men who fit the correct mould: if you don't subscribe to the "correct" way of thinking as a man, then you are on your own.

This complacency is rapidly making men's rights a right wing issue, and that's extremely dangerous: men, especially young men are a fantastic power for good in the world, but they have the potential to do much damage. It's one thing for men to feel excluded an like they have no opportunities, it's another to feel they are then being blamed for it.

The Right wing will welcome them with open arms and feed them poison, and the results can be seen in the Proud Boys and the White supremacists, the Tommy Robinson supporters. They don't care a bit for their footsoldiers and will use them as cannon fodder, but they have a better story for the confused young men who feel that they are being attacked just for being male.

We need to have a better story for men, not just "you are acceptable if you support our cause" but a proper life giving story that tells young men who they are and gives them a challenge instead of overwhelming them with guilt for being male.
Sadly most HoC debates on anything that's seen as in any way 'fringe' will attract very sparse showing.

I agree there has been an upsurge in nasty right wing groups recruiting disaffected sorts, who will easily believe poison being drip fed to them.

Especially racist stuff.. Immigrants, or any other group not deemed acceptable in their eyes, is the 'enemy' to be attacked.

It's an appeal to 'tribalism' in the same way that football hooligans were / are recruited.

Of course its going to vary region to region, country to country, but I see many more young men actively involved in all sorts of stuff, both political, and personal, quite happy to be male, but not showing signs of 'guilt' for that fact.

They're starting their own businesses, or working hard in others, tending bars, studying, grafting on farms, raising families, teaching, being involved in music, sport, community action, all sorts of things, creating their own stories about 'who they are'.

Yes I do also know a few who have ended up drug casualties, and made some poor life choices, but there will sadly always be a few of them, I guess.

But I don't see anyone saying there should be less support for those who need it or that it is somehow 'wrong' to be male.

Just that it's wrong to be a 'violent' meatheaded male, who thinks it's OK to hurt, or abuse other people, or other groups that's all.

Most young men, would agree, and wish they would stop it too, there's just a minority who think that it somehow gives them some status, or have been brought up to believe that violence sorts anything.

I don't see much controversy in opposing any of that ??


I'd love to see more opportunities for youngsters of all inclinations.

In my own field, of food growing we're trying to do just that..

There's quite a 'grassroots' upsurge, of interest in urban and peri urban food growing right now, particularly among the younger generation.

Just need to find a bit more land for everyone who wants some now.

So yes - definitely actively support measures to improve the lot of those with fewer born-into opportunities and life chances - some of us actually are.

But as ever - if you mention it -

Not far behind will come the accusations of 'virtue signalling' :rolleyes:
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Yup, I'd agree, just as it is with IWD, anything about racism, disability, mental heath in general, environmental protection, international development. human rights.

You name it, all these big, real world issues that are arguably the most important things to tackle, are shuffled off to the sidelines, and seen as 'special interest'

Frustrating isn't it.
 
Yup, I'd agree, just as it is with IWD, anything about racism, disability, mental heath in general, environmental protection, international development. human rights.

You name it, all these big, real world issues that are arguably the most important things to tackle, are shuffled off to the sidelines, and seen as 'special interest'

Frustrating isn't it.
Certainly ironic: considering that we are supposed to be living in a male dominated patriarchy et c, I'd have expected there to be a lot more political interest.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Certainly ironic: considering that we are supposed to be living in a male dominated patriarchy et c, I'd have expected there to be a lot more political interest.
Yes but the kind of 'male domination' the Patriachy like is all about, strength, power, taking control, ownership, dominion that kind of stuff.

Not the sort where men say "Help I'm struggling, I can't cope with all this, I don't feel I fit in with, or even want to live up to being this sort of 'alpha' type male that you put on a pedestal, and seem to want everyone to aspire to being"

'Trad' Patriachal values, and forced manly man type expectations, can of course hurt and limit many men too.

I'm sort of surprised that that concept of it not just being some strictly demarcated men versus women idea, hadn't come across your bows, at least, Andy??

But our political system doesn't really celebrate, or even much approve other ways of being 'a man' does it??

More so among the yourh maybe, but not yet so much in the older generation who still hold a lot of the true power.

Or at least that's how it is the UK.

I'm hopeful that younger politicians coming through might change that.
There are a few, currently hiding on the back benches.

But right now it's a polarised, adversarial system, that isn't big on caring, empathy, or giving a shoot about squidgy stuff like feelings, mental health, and general social wellbeing.
 
Location
London
I remain puzzled by where you get this supposed alpha male thing from, and the patriarchy (capital P?) that you associate with it.

Doesn't describe me (working class northerner) and have never felt any pressure to fit into that role so don't need your constant efforts to free me and mine. And I'm no spring chicken, can't claim to be a member of the new youth. Nor my dad. Cannot even think of any friends past or current who come across/try to come across like this. Nor any of the various blokes I have met from cyclechat.

I well remember Paul Mccartney (working class northern brit) saying that when he and the Beatles (capital B) first went to the US they felt that many of the men appeared to be something from another age/behind the times. I think he meant that many came across/wanted to come across as "jocks".

This was way back at the beginning of the 60s. Well over half a century ago.

If this image/ambition was as prevalent as you claim one would I think expect it to be scattered across the media/TV etc. Can you give us any popular TV examples of this role/image so that us blokes can measure ourselves against it - see if we suddenly get the shakes at falling short, or decide to drop out and let the portrayed hulk stride on?

Last person I heard use the word patriarchy was a woman years ago. Called herself a feminist (fair enough) but used the word patriarchy ironically to refer to her previous dogmatism. Best not go into what vapourised her dogmatism.

That tag line of yours

“To sin by silence, when we should protest, makes cowards out of men.”

Never noticed before. New? Shouldn't the last word be "people".

I share by the way andy's bemusement at the lack of notice this day got.

Well actually I think he feels more than bemusement as I have the impression that he works in an area that could benefit from more focus.

so let's hope it gets more notice next year.

shouldn't be hard to find issues it can highlight/embrace.
 

Joey Shabadoo

My pronouns are "He", "Him" and "buggerlugs"
This seems an appropriate thread for this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55065071

One of Scotland's leading pipers says he is groped, humiliated and photographed indecently by women on a regular basis while wearing a kilt.
Willie Armstrong from the Red Hot Chilli Pipers told BBC Scotland he had experienced inappropriate behaviour since childhood.
He believes other pipers have similar experiences and that complaints are often laughed off or dismissed.
He added: "It's the constant 'are you a true Scotsman?' - basically asking you if you're wearing underwear or not. If you reversed that behaviour and I was to say to a woman 'can I ask what you're wearing underneath your dress' it would be a whole different ball game."
Sounds about right judging by my own experience too. Not something that you can complain about either.
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
... considering that we are supposed to be living in a male dominated patriarchy etc.,
I remain puzzled by where you get this supposed alpha male thing from, and the patriarchy (capital P?) that you associate with it.
The biggest challenge to those who want to 'smash the patriarchy' it seems to me is to prove that such a thing still exists. Define it so we can all know what it means.

If smashing the patriarchy means ceasing to inculcate in boys that they should work hard, get a job, marry, start a family and be responsible for it by providing for and protecting it then it is a price not worth paying considering the dire social problems caused by mass fatherlessness where men have abdicated all responsibility. That of course will sound 'old fashioned' and 'traditional', but that does not invalidate it, and is certainly more positive than endless bleating about white male privilege and toxic masculinity.

Now I don't believe there was ever some golden age in the past (like the Victorians or 1950's) where all this was sorted out and running smoothly, but the last half century or so has not been what I would think of as progressive when it comes to this subject.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
The biggest challenge to those who want to 'smash the patriarchy' it seems to me is to prove that such a thing still exists. Define it so we can all know what it means.

If smashing the patriarchy means ceasing to inculcate in boys that they should work hard, get a job, marry, start a family and be responsible for it by providing for and protecting it then it is a price not worth paying considering the dire social problems caused by mass fatherlessness where men have abdicated all responsibility. That of course will sound 'old fashioned' and 'traditional', but that does not invalidate it, and is certainly more positive than endless bleating about white male privilege and toxic masculinity.

Now I don't believe there was ever some golden age in the past (like the Victorians or 1950's) where all this was sorted out and running smoothly, but the last half century or so has not been what I would think of as progressive when it comes to this subject.
Except it doesn't mean that does it, in any way shape or form.

But hey nothing like spreading a bit of misinformation, geeing up the aggrieved, and then going forth to do battle against those supposed 'enemies'

These awful wimmin demanding the same rights and freedoms and autonomy in our lives as men - how very dare we ??

If men have 'abdicated responsibility' then they need to sort themselves out, and act like grown ups don't they ??

(or might they be struggling in various ways as outlined above and need some help from society )

TBH very few of the men I know have abdicated responsibility for themselves or their families, and they no more subscribe to trad patriachal views than I do.

But it's the populist way to resist progress.

Seems a highly effective trick of late..

As you were.

Enjoy the froth.

P. S. Its been defined endlessly, only you won't listen, so what's the point of trying again??
 
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