Doms Decline ?

[Pale Rider]

Not interested though but thanks.

That's a shame because you haven't so far to go to reach a good standard.

You didn't know what the Tories Johnson were like

Of course I did, that's why I voted Conservative.

What I didn't know is how an individual would react to circumstances which were yet to unfold.

What I also knew is that at some point in the future, someone in government would do something shameful.

I knew that because that's what happened with every government in my adult lifetime.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Her behaviour was the most egregious

No. Cummings was symptomatic. Far worse.

 

[DRM]

@DRM that's still the same where I am a few miles south of Bradford. They ignored instructions from the start and have continued to do so.

Dominic Cummings et al's behaviour didn't change theirs.

I suspected as much, but I don’t get into Kirklees, so couldn’t comment, but the attitude of some people is appalling and there’s no wonder that Covid was rampant when they won’t do what’s being asked for the good of all

 

[DaveReading]

@DRM that's still the same where I am a few miles south of Bradford. They ignored instructions from the start and have continued to do so.

Dominic Cummings et al's behaviour didn't change theirs.

I'm not sure what your point is.

There was always going to be a proportion of the population who would defy the regulations as a matter of principle, just as there would be unquestioning obedience at the other end of the scale.

It's the mass of floating voters in between those two groups who were almost certainly influenced by how they saw Cummings and the rest of the "one rule for you, another for us" brigade behaving and, in DC's case, thumbing his nose at us when found out.

 

[kingrollo]

All this is a convenient smokescreen to further obscure the fact that we crash out without a deal on 31st Dec [which I believe is Cumming's legacy, along with conspiring to deny the NE its Assembly].

The only people any of us can blame for that are the 17.4m who voted for it on 23.6.2016.

No distractions, and nothing... nothing... will alter my opinion that leaving the EU, under our original membership terms, was a very stupid and irrational thing to do.

Hmmm - my real worry is what a ton of money and control of the media can achieve ....Brexit a few years ago ....."we don't need a welfare state" next ?

 

[oldworld]

You seem to be priming us for the bombshell that you have sympathy for Cummings....just come out and say it if that's the case - don't keep dancing around it.

I guess someone has to have sympathy for him but I can't see a queue forming.

Altogether nasty piece of work working for a corrupt government.

 

[newfhouse]

Altogether nasty piece of work working for a corrupt and incompetent government.

Fixed that for you. You’re welcome

 

[snorri]

Would a public lynching suffice?

Only if repeated at prime locations around the country.

 

[Rusty Nails]

The problem is not Cummings, There are, and always will be, unpleasant, devious, lying creeps like him in the background wanting to push their points of view.

The problem is that there are too many opportunist, greedy and incompetent politicians who rely on people like him because of their greed and incompetence.

Power is their goal and they have no scruples about how they get it. Johnson is a prime example, but just the latest and definitely not the last. If Johnson goes there are a few, just as bad, or worse in the form of Gove, slithering up behind him.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Hmmm - my real worry is what a ton of money and control of the media can achieve ....Brexit a few years ago ....."we don't need a welfare state" next ?

Or "We'd like to have a social security system but those nasty Europeans are trying to destroy us as a country so we can't afford it. (and of course it's only used by scroungers anyway)"

 

[Andy in Germany]

All this is a convenient smokescreen to further obscure the fact that we crash out without a deal on 31st Dec [which I believe is Cumming's legacy, along with conspiring to deny the NE its Assembly].

The only people any of us can blame for that are the 17.4m who voted for it on 23.6.2016.

No distractions, and nothing... nothing... will alter my opinion that leaving the EU, under our original membership terms, was a very stupid and irrational thing to do.

I think we have to be careful about that. Firstly, Brexit is clearly a massive con, but it was built on a foundation of 40 years of very good, very well financed, patient propaganda from multiple sources: I grew up with that and could well have believed it if I didn't end up living in another EU country. Personally I think it says a lot that is positive about the UK as a whole that after all this propaganda overlaid with racist anti immigration dog whistling before the vote, only a relatively small number actually voted for it.

Secondly, there are honourable reasons to vote for Brexit, because there are genuine problems with the EU. I remember having a very long and passionate argument on here with someone, but we ended on good terms because I could see the point he was making, even if I didn't agree these problems are sufficient to want to throw it all away. I'm uncomfortable blaming people because they disagree with me, even if their decisions lead to negative consequences they were specifically told wouldn't happen.

Finally, people were told the vote was for multiple things, or about multiple things and voted in good faith for those things: then the day after it all changed in a classic bait and switch. Getting angry with fellow citizens who have to deal with the consequences keeps the focus off the people who actually caused the problem in the first place: the con men and women who pulled this in the first place and are still in power and will remain so until their house of cards finally begins to fall.

 

[byegad]

Or "We'd like to have a social security system but those nasty Europeans are trying to destroy us as a country so we can't afford it. (and of course it's only used by scroungers anyway)"

You are Claire Voyant and I claim my £5.

 

[Archie_tect]

I think we have to be careful about that. Firstly, Brexit is clearly a massive con, but it was built on a foundation of 40 years of very good, very well financed, patient propaganda from multiple sources: I grew up with that and could well have believed it if I didn't end up living in another EU country. Personally I think it says a lot that is positive about the UK as a whole that after all this propaganda overlaid with racist anti immigration dog whistling before the vote, only a relatively small number actually voted for it.

Secondly, there are honourable reasons to vote for Brexit, because there are genuine problems with the EU. I remember having a very long and passionate argument on here with someone, but we ended on good terms because I could see the point he was making, even if I didn't agree these problems are sufficient to want to throw it all away. I'm uncomfortable blaming people because they disagree with me, even if their decisions lead to negative consequences they were specifically told wouldn't happen.

Finally, people were told the vote was for multiple things, or about multiple things and voted in good faith for those things: then the day after it all changed in a classic bait and switch. Getting angry with fellow citizens who have to deal with the consequences keeps the focus off the people who actually caused the problem in the first place: the con men and women who pulled this in the first place and are still in power and will remain so until their house of cards finally begins to fall.

Andy, that's a very thorough and compassionate view of why people may have been conned into voting the UK out of the EU, but the underlying point remains that if they hadn't voted 'Yes', we wouldn't have even started this journey in the first place. It exposes deeper and more systemic problems, and says far more about Little England than we perhaps expected. The people in Scotland, Gibraltar and N Ireland appreciated the issues at stake and the implications and voted honestly.

Had there had been safeguards built into the referendum [as every other country normally requires], ie 2/3rds majority in favour or a second referendum on the final settled agreement, then I would not be so angry with those who voted Leave. The fact that those safeguards were omitted speaks volumes about the quality of leadership the Conservatives have had since Cameron [well, since Duncan-Smith, or Howard], and how easily the political parties have been led by devious strategists in the last 10 years to get us where we are today. The fact we were conned is now irrelevant as the leaders we have had have utterly failed to protect the best interests of the UK and the Union... they will have to live with that while those who engineered it will get to enjoy the financial benefits they have encrued- they will have no difficulty with that because they have no moral or ethical consciences.

Being ignorant of the facts, or being contrary voting deliberately as a protest [for other reasons] is a worse excuse than voting on principle- I don't hate the people who voted Leave, I just don't respect them.

 

[Archie_tect]

You are Claire Voyant and I claim my £5.

Lots of us could see and shouted very loudly- it's the people who could hear but didn't listen that were the problem... they still are.

 

[Joey Shabadoo]

I don't think it was 40 years of "propaganda" (really? seriously?). I don't think people were conned either. I think there is a very large proportion of English (and Welsh) people who believe in the exceptionalism myth and who are, by nature, xenophobic and inward thinking. Brexiteers didn't manufacture Brexit, it was an opportunity eagerly grasped by these people.

It wasn't a slim majority either - it was nearly 54% of votes in England.

Look at this map -

Reminds me of the US election maps which show rural areas supporting Trump.

Time for people to confront the reality. These people weren't conned or persuaded, it's what they wanted all along.