China - what’s to be done?

Arrowfoot

Veteran
China is an anomaly in the way they conduct foreign policy that no other country whether of Western or Soviet persuasion or even neutral countries do. It has never cultivated or nurtured country to country relationship since the Chinese Communist Party took over China in 1949. Their only alliance with USSR was done at party level before taking over China remained at party level and ended there. The Amur River border houses the largest concentration of troops of both countries due 50 years of tension.

They however have developed vassal states such as North Korea and Laos and a whole series of dependent countries thru Debt Diplomacy in Africa and Asia. Both Pakistan and Sri Lanka have been hawked to their eyeballs in Chinese debt that cannot be repaid. So are are countries like Zambia. They are now deploying vaccine diplomacy with Latin America.

How do you even project power and influence in a World with 195 countries with not a single country that you can call a friend or an ally. Even Singapore, the independent country with majority pop -77% ethnic Chinese outside of China (including Taiwan and HK) is firmly with the Allies - US, UK, Australia, NZ etc thru a series of defence pacts.

Our economies are clearly dependent on the Chinese economy for our finished products and probably the only reason why major corporations lobby our Govt to stay friendly. And I don't think there is any fear of their military might and they have never won a single war in their history. They intervened in the Korean War but were driven back. They fought the Vietnamese after US withdrawal but was given a bloody nose and scrambled back across their border. And the Vietnamese hate them more than the Americans.

And then we have every influential Chinese family right up to their billionaires and policy wonks sending their kids to Western Universities. The penny dropped when I found out that late Deng Xioping's daughter is a resident of London for decades. Thats the ironman of the CCCP post Mao and who moved China to capitalism.

Go figure.
 

cookiemonster

Legendary Member
Location
Hong Kong
 

Moodyman

Guru
Yes its starting to go off the pro-democracy cliff edge. The Chinese will end up with a rapidly shrinking export market very soon if this keeps up.
Doubt it. It's only the Anglosphere that is making a fuss. Other parts of the world are either indifferent or encouraging of the law. Here's an excerpt from yesterday's FT which gives a better picture:

"China’s support for Latin America in the pandemic is also reaping diplomatic dividends. When the UN Human Rights Council discussed Beijing’s sweeping national security law imposed on Hong Kong, Cuba sponsored a resolution in support of the law which attracted 53 votes in favour, including those of Venezuela and Nicaragua. A resolution from the UK attacking the Chinese crackdown attracted just 27 votes. Tiny Belize was the only Latin American country to back the British proposal."

Full article is here:

https://www.ft.com/content/741e72ed-e1db-4609-b389-969318f170e8

So, whilst the US and UK have been insular and pandering to their populist constituencies, the Chinese have been on a global PR drive - playing the sort role that the US would have played at times of crisis.

I expect all this to blow over after November. If Trump gets in, his China bashing will have served its purpose and he'll need them to buy more treasuries to kickstart the economy.

If Biden wins, he'll have a reset and a thaw in relations.

The US business community is doing a lot of lobbying to ease the tensions.
 
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RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
PRC is hardly a worse regime than US or UK, IMO
For its own citizens? Don’t be daft.
You tell me who is the daft one!

The problem, is that so many in the West think they know China, and it is getting worse because of Trump and Covid, while, if people were truly open minded, objective and be prepared to learn (e.g. re HongKong which cookiemonster has largely described and explained above), their attitude towards China should have improved instead.

If you have the time, this is quite a good article on life and attitude in China.
 

newfhouse

Regressive elitist lefty
You tell me who is the daft one!

The problem, is that so many in the West think they know China, and it is getting worse because of Trump and Covid, while, if people were truly open minded, objective and be prepared to learn (e.g. re HongKong which cookiemonster has largely described and explained above), their attitude towards China should have improved instead.

If you have the time, this is quite a good article on life and attitude in China.
Interesting articles, especially the long New Yorker one, so thanks for the links.

In the UK I can and do hold and freely express my views about national and local government; I can and do openly associate myself with organised groups seeking societal and political change; and I can be and am a member of increasingly vocal minority communities without fear of losing my public sector job.

These are all matters of degree. I am well aware that we don’t have perfection here - prejudice, discrimination and othering happen far too often. I don’t think anyone sensible is saying ”The West Good, China Bad” but the opposite, or even equivalence, isn’t true either in my view.
 

Joey Shabadoo

My pronouns are "He", "Him" and "buggerlugs"
China builds public toilet in the site of razed Mosque in Xinjiang

http://theasianherald.com/china-builds-public-toilet-in-the-site-of-razed-mosque-in-xinjiang/

If the reports are to be believed then almost 70% of the mosques in Xinjiang province have been razed by the authorities. The effort to erasing Muslim cemeteries and religious structures has intensified since 2016. A report carried out Agence France-Presse reveals that at least 45 cemeteries were razed between 2014 and October 2019. The places are converted parks, activity areas, parking lot, or left vacant. Another report carried out by the Uyghur Human Rights Project based in Washington reveals that at least 10000 to 15000 religious structures of the Uyghur Muslims were destroyed between 2016 to 2019.

China - not a nice bunch of lads.
 
For its own citizens? Don’t be daft.
One of my sons worked in China for a while alongside Chinese management. At one point air pollution was getting so bad that they decided to get out of that area and work from somewhere else. The labouring classes were left behind and he asked about them. The reply was that they would just have to put up with it. No concern about their welfare at all. Mind you not much better than tory Britain I suppose.
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2...pacific-nations-set-worlds-biggest-trade-pact
While the West is busy making itself irrelevant the East is busy getting richer
This is something where new, independent global Britain could show its prowess. Step in and form a new trading block so that countries like Australia and New Zealand don't get sucked into this new free trade area. Get Canada in and rescue them from the EU bullies at the same time. It's all starting to fall into place ...
 

newfhouse

Regressive elitist lefty
This is something where new, independent global Britain could show its prowess. Step in and form a new trading block so that countries like Australia and New Zealand don't get sucked into this new free trade area. Get Canada in and rescue them from the EU bullies at the same time. It's all starting to fall into place ...
These days we’d have to outsource the production of the necessary red military tunics to China.
 

Dave7

Legendary Member
Location
Cheshire
There's a war coming in South East Asia and it's been brewing for 20 years.
Why ???
I don't mean why do you say that, I mean why does it get to that situation.
Always puzzles me. You get eg 2 nations like UK and Germany.
They disagree on matters..... allow it to fester into all out war...... sacrifice thousands/millions of lives........10 years later they are trading with each other :wacko:.
Makes no sense.
 

Eziemnaik

Über Member
Transition period between outgoing and incoming superpower - unless they accept the inevitable the (proxy) war is likely.
All it takes is a couple of sunken ships in the Strait of Malacca
(And ASEAN nations are wisely hedging their bets whom to support)
 
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